Excuse me while I throw this down, I’m old and cranky and tired of hearing the idiocy repeated by people who ought to know better.
Real women do not have curves. Real women do not look like just one thing.
Real women have curves, and not. They are tall, and not. They are brown-skinned, and olive-skinned, and not. They have small breasts, and big ones, and no breasts whatsoever.
Real women start their lives as baby girls. And as baby boys. And as babies of indeterminate biological sex whose bodies terrify their doctors and families into making all kinds of very sudden decisions.
Real women have big hands and small hands and long elegant fingers and short stubby fingers and manicures and broken nails with dirt under them.
Real women have armpit hair and leg hair and pubic hair and facial hair and chest hair and sexy moustaches and full, luxuriant beards. Real women have none of these things, spontaneously or as the result of intentional change. Real women are bald as eggs, by chance and by choice and by chemo. Real women have hair so long they can sit on it. Real women wear wigs and weaves and extensions and kufi and do-rags and hairnets and hijab and headscarves and hats and yarmulkes and textured rubber swim caps with the plastic flowers on the sides.
Real women wear high heels and skirts. Or not.
Real women are feminine and smell good and they are masculine and smell good and they are androgynous and smell good, except when they don’t smell so good, but that can be changed if desired because real women change stuff when they want to.
Real women have ovaries. Unless they don’t, and sometimes they don’t because they were born that way and sometimes they don’t because they had to have their ovaries removed. Real women have uteruses, unless they don’t, see above. Real women have vaginas and clitorises and XX sex chromosomes and high estrogen levels, they ovulate and menstruate and can get pregnant and have babies. Except sometimes not, for a rather spectacular array of reasons both spontaneous and induced.
Real women are fat. And thin. And both, and neither, and otherwise. Doesn’t make them any less real.
There is a phrase I wish I could engrave upon the hearts of every single person, everywhere in the world, and it is this sentence which comes from the genius lips of the grand and eloquent Mr. Glenn Marla:
There is no wrong way to have a body.
I’m going to say it again because it’s important: There is no wrong way to have a body.
And if your moral compass points in any way, shape, or form to equality, you need to get this through your thick skull and stop with the “real women are like such-and-so” crap.
You are not the authority on what “real” human beings are, and who qualifies as “real” and on what basis. All human beings are real.
Yes, I know you’re tired of feeling disenfranchised. It is a tiresome and loathsome thing to be and to feel. But the tit-for-tat disenfranchisement of others is not going to solve that problem. Solidarity has to start somewhere and it might as well be with you and me.
NOTE: Due to the overwhelming popularity of this post, and after a handful of requests for a version of this that could be distributed in print form, I have created a PDF of this text that you can download and print for free.
Please respect my intellectual property and my copyright and leave all the identifying information intact, and do not reprint or republish in any other format without permission.
{ 144 } Comments
Thank you for this!!! The body policing and shaming that so many “self/body acceptance” people engage in is horrifying and NOT HELPFUL. We can’t destroy the bullshit paradigm when we’re busy destroying each other. <3
Perfect!! Hope this goes viral as all fuck. Reposting.
HERE HERE!!!! I hate the “real women” blather. Heard it the first time several years ago when I was in college and hated it then.
I love this. I think we’re having a bit of a mind meld. I just wrote about this a few weeks ago: http://www.bodylovewellness.com/2011/05/31/real-women-have-curves-and-dont-have-curves-and-have-a-few-curves-and-whatever/.
Very well stated
Thank you for writing this!!!! How boring if everybody had the same body, was the same color etc.. ect… It is our uniqueness that’s makes us special, interesting and divine-each and everyone of us is perfect in our own unique beauty!
Oh, thanks for that. I like that.
What brought this on for me was having a correspondent use the “real women have curves” phrase with me yesterday. A little internal voice just said “oh, for Pete’s sake, not again.”
eh care to discuss actual logic? Biological sex is based on standard biological markers which holds true across all species and is not the same as gender, which is based on arbitrary and harmful stereotypes . And another point, being female or male is not a medical disorder — while intersex IS a medical disorder.
And because intersex is not in the same basic category as male or female, then intersex becomes an outlier. It is not relevant to any discussion about transgendesism. Duh. Seriously, duh.
A long time ago, Twisty tried to make the argument that because the arbitrary stereotype “woman” could not be defined, then the biological marker for “female” could not be defined. Obviously, she’s not very good at logic. It’s like trying to make the argument that potatoes and walnuts are both fruits.
If “solidarity” is the goal, then the question must be asked, “solidarity with who”? Solidarity with people who think that being a woman means liking pink, wearing dresses, and expressing nurturance, etc, etc? I think REAL MEN possess all those qualities right now and they don’t have to claim that they’re “women” in order to express those qualities.
Thank you.
Putting on my medical historian hat (since that is largely what I do for a living) here for a moment: intersex disorders are currently classified as pathological by biomedical practitioners, although for many such disorders there is no clear evidence that they produce effects consistent with that characterization. There are solid reasons for not assuming that every intersex disorder is problematic (see the work of Suzanne Kessler, among others), not the least of which is that so many go unnoticed throughout the lifespan, which seems a fairly strong argument against interpreting such conditions as uniformly pathological by nature.
Bioscience does indeed recognize standard markers of biological sex. However, these are multiple — internal anatomy, external anatomy, chromosomes, endocrine glands, endocrine hormone levels, etc. — and even within individuals not diagnosable as intersex, these can display significant diversity. A body diagnosed as “female” does not always feature uniformly female-typed biology in all its aspects, nor do bodies diagnosed as “male” always feature uniformly male-typed biology. Diagnosing biological sex completely and accurately is by no means as simple a matter as you apparently would like to make it. There are not a few bioscientists and physicians (e.g. Anne Fausto-Sterling) who argue (rightly, in my eyes) that our current system of biomedical sex diagnosis for human beings is seriously inadequate to the biological reality of our species.
In any event, “woman” is a social category. “Female” is a biomedical category. If you read very very carefully indeed, you will notice that I have not made any brash assertions — although I certainly could — about how biomedical sex can or should be diagnosed.
You are quite correct that I did not thoroughly characterize “solidarity.” I meant it generally, in the sense that human beings have bodies and those bodies are all equally valid, a point on which it is notoriously difficult to achieve solidarity. Q.E.D.
Hanne, thank you for accurately representing intersex as not essentially a medical disorder.
I could go into what I look like here but I won’t. But never in my life have I doubted or has anyone said to me that because of my size/shape/medical situation/biology that I’m not a real woman. I’m lucky, because I’m surrounded by real people who wouldn’t talk or even think that way. If they did, though, I would kick their ass all the way to the outlet mall in East Vacaville … and then make them read this post.
In short, I adore this. Thank you a million times.
From my perspective, it looks like the women supporting transgenderism aren’t consistent.
On the one hand, they usually tend to recognize that dumping females into a box of stereotypes is harmful (wrong). But on the other hand, they claim that when a mtf or a ftm jumps into the box of stereotypes, that is somehow “liberating” and proves “stereotypes are fluid”.
How does “stereotypes are fluid” prove that “stereotypes are wrong”? How does “anyone can be a stereotype” prove that “no one should be a stereotype”? I’m asking! Do you think that stereotypes are good and valuable, or something? I’m trying to understand your perspective, but it doesn’t seem to make sense. Do you believe that if someone likes pink then that makes them a woman? How about if someone is assertive, does that make them a man?
Is there some set number of traditional masculine traits that if possessed in sufficient quantity, would turn any person into a man? So what’s the number? Five, six, what?
You’re trying to define terms like “woman” and “man” by either the absence or the presence of some quality, while I am saying that due to their arbitrary nature, those terms lack the capacity for definition, period. And if trans-supporters gronk that last bit, then they try to say that “because a term cannot be defined, then I get to be King of the World and force everyone else to use my definition”.
Your entitlement, please see it. Why do you think that you alone are entitled to define who is a woman, and I am not entitled? What is your reason?
You haven’t thought this through, have you?
Oh, this is great – as the jet pilots used to say, JFB (just fucking beautiful). That last line is killer.
m Andrea, it seems like you should write up your position on your blog and engage with it there instead of promoting your ideas on Hanne’s blog. Also, it would be civil to keep your ad hominems to yourself.
Because I realize that the terms “man” and “woman” are arbitrary, then I don’t use them other than in casual conversation when referring to various humans. (he, she, his, hers, etc).
Even when analyizing sexism, patriarchy, oppressive systems, gender, those terms are simply used only for purposes of basic grammer. That’s it. Nothing else. We could even agree to use hiz hizzer hizzold hizzonktastic and they still wouldn’t mean anything.
And really sorry, but seriously! Again, being female is not a medical disorder while intersex is a disorder. Hanne Blank is trying to use the same argument (“because something can’t be defined” then it’s not a medical disorder”) What? The condition of intersex has criteria which is quite clear. All the various intersex conditions end up creating medical complications due to chromosomal abnormalities.
In order to inflate their numbers, some intersex organizations will include conditions which doctors do not consider to be intersex. The doctors don’t include those precisely because there is no chromosomal abnormality and no medical complication which results from a chromosomal abnormality. I found that out a few years ago, while looking for more information than what I had found on the intersex websites. They were listing crap which doctors didn’t even consider intersex! Trying to pass off non-intersex folks as if they really were intersex is a very dishonest way to argue your point, btw. It detracts from your over-all credibility. Sorry, but hey it’s true…
Anyway, because I don’t use he/she/etc as if those terms have any real meaning, I have to use the only terms which do have any standard criteria — which is biological sex. And as soon as I do, I notice that every human is capable of possessing any quality, and they don’t need to claim that they’re a stereotype in order to express it.
Really honestly, you seem to be hung up on stereotypes, *as if stereoypes are good and valuable*. I don’t understand that part, frankly. It’s particularly confusing to me, and probably to every other person who falls on the other side of the transgenderism issue.
m Andrea, one point that I feel strongly about is that all of us regardless of gender/biological sex markers/sexual preference/shoe size–have the right to define ourselves. If the terms ‘woman’ and ‘man’ lack the capacity for definition, as you posit, then each of us must determine for ourselves whether we identify as, and wish to be described as, a woman or a man. Whether we choose to express that identity through stereotypical markers (i.e. I am a woman, and I wear makeup and heels and dresses) is, again, an individual choice.
I believe that what Hanne is saying (and Hanne, correct me if I’ve gotten this wrong) is that a person who identifies as a woman is a real woman, regardless of biological markers, body shape, manner of dress, or anything else.
How, I ask, does that equal ” think[ing] that you alone are entitled to define who is a woman” ?
m Andrea, you are Missing The Point.
Hanne, you make me so proud to be a feminist.
- Real woman
m andrea — I have no idea what your background here is, but thought I’d point out re: biological diversity, intersex, etc. is that the Thing You’re Missing is that the lines around “pathology” are very rarely clear.
Being a human of either recognized biological sex has plenty of medical complications by nature, some sex-linked and some not. Estrogen is linked with immune function, as a single example, and that’s probably part of why women have such a vastly higher rate of autoimmune disease. I’d be willing to bet you have some gene somewhere that sometimes, depending on circumstance, potentially causes medical complications. Probably quite a lot of them. Just like everybody else.
SOME defined intersex conditions may involve medical complications, and SOME OTHERS do not. Defining sex via chromosomes can give startling different categorization for some people than, say, defining sex by hormone balance, or defining sex by genitalia. These are all pieces of information, simple facts of one’s biological development — but they don’t always align into two simple categories, and that isn’t always clearly medically problematic, certainly not any moreso than any number of things that interconnect with various kinds of medical complications. You can bring genetic difference and correlations to a place where the vast majority of humans have some medical problem due to their chromosomes, if you’d like. Who decides where that line is, which genes are pathological?
You also clearly seem to have some trans bone to pick, and I’m not going to really go there too much, except to say that there are also all sorts of folks who identify as trans for totally varying reasons. I identify as trans, though it’s rather complicated for me; as far as I’m concerned, our identities are built as at least partly a feedback between concept of self and relationship with others’ concepts of us, so there is simply no way to be a being in a social relation of any kind with anybody in a 2-gendered culture and not define oneself at least somewhat on the basis of those 2 genders. Whether people understand their gender as innate and fundamental, or as a set of complex negotiations — bear in mind, with the societies that have interacted with their entire sense of self for as long as they’ve lived– that depends on the trans-person you talk to (and the person you talk to generally, frankly — it’s not like these issues never come up for people who do identify within the gender they were assigned at birth).
And, as this rather awesome rant on “realness” points out, it’s frankly not your privilege or right to get to define which of the many approaches to somebody’s own gender identity is the most valid; people’s bodies are their own, their identities are their own, and their understanding of self-as-social-identity is so complex generally that any one of us trying to rigidly place _our_ meanings over top of somebody else’s interpretation of self is frankly a stupid, utterly pointless, and egotistical exercise.
this very, very much resonates with me. i’ve been complaining about the rhetoric around the “real women” phrase for ages, and it seems it still won’t tire out and disappear forever. shame. i wrote a similar (but less eloquent) rant many months ago. i think more people need to hear this message!
thank you for sharing this.
nicolette
Thanks for eloquently explaining why all that ‘Real women…’ bullshit angers me so much.
Right the fuck on, Hanne. Reposting! With gratitude!
Real women have skin with pores, which airbrushed photos do not.
m andrea-
“If “solidarity” is the goal, then the question must be asked, “solidarity with who”? ”
“Because I realize that the terms “man” and “woman” are arbitrary, then I don’t use them other than in casual conversation when referring to various humans. (he, she, his, hers, etc). Even when analyizing sexism, patriarchy, oppressive systems, gender, those terms are simply used only for purposes of basic grammer.”
I realize that it is a spelling, rather than grammatical, error but the word is “grammar”. Also, if one were to adhere strictly to grammatically correct English, the one would ask “solidarity with whom”?
My point being, if one is splitting hairs, one loses the gist of what is being expressed. There is a time and a place for either. I personally applaud the gist of the post here in that I am tired of any kind of stereotype regarding humans, particularly my own gender, and this is a heartfelt, and succinct, cry to stop that ridiculousness.
Well done, Hanne.
Yes, a hundred times this!
This weblog is being featured on Five Star Friday – http://t.co/LyzHPpr
Thank you for expressing my anger and frustration so eloquently!
I so completely love this. THANK YOU.
Eloquent and brilliant as always. Tiny top hat tip to you, Hanne the Heroine.
THANK YOU 1000 times. i can’t count how many times I’ve been put down or shunned or criticized by my beautiful, real, fat and a bit unhealthy girl friends who don’t get how much they hurt me when they show photos of folks who probably looked quite a bit like me before the airbrushers started in on “improving” ‘em and criticize them for being slender and healthy looking. And they don’t get why I’d be hurt at the outright ripping apart they do to these also real women. We’re all worthwhile, and you can’t up your esteem by trying to steal someone else’s. We’re all beautiful, valuable and real.
Thank you so much for writing this. It’s sad that it still needs to be said, but it does.
Brilliant! Mentioned on facebook and Twitter!
Firstly I would like to say that I like what this article says. Biology does most of the time define how our bodies develop, those bodies define genders. That’s all though, that’s where it should stop and I feel the same way about men. As far as stereo typing goes unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it. It is part of our human psychology to categorize (btw I do study psychology) we come into contact with such an astonishing amount of stuff everyday it’s the only way to put it in our brains. It’s how recall works for our memories stick in a few characteristics bring up things in that category select proper option. We do it with people too. Does that mean we should be closed minded towards letting someone who usually falls into one category fall into another? No. Does it mean people can’t switch categories? No. Those categories should not define what we think a persons behavior should be either. We can’t control stereo types they are inevitable but we don’t have to let them control us. To get rid of stereo types is asking to much of human nature.
I completely understand where you are coming from and far be it for me to defend a major commercial enterprise’ tag line but… The line “real women have curves” is not the same thing as “real women ALL have curves”.
“Real women have curves” is a condensed form of the the sentiment “Some real women have curves even though magazines and cat walks NEVER show it.”
I love you.
All I can say is ,God didn’t make no junk. We are All beautiful human beings, whether “man” or “woman.” I try to look past the outward appearances of someone and see their inner qualities and beauty. I am a 56 year old female, who considers herself a “tomboy” jack of all trades master of none. WOuld I be considered a man or woman?
I like you.
A lot.
And I want that statement embroidered across my life–
“There is no wrong way to have a body”, indeed.
Thank you for this wise and wonderful post. As someone who is intersex by birth and a community advocate, I am constantly running into the problem of people’s anxieties about the “realness” of binary sex. I see people shamed, harassed, and abused because they cannot or do not wish to conform. I would like to see the phrase “There is no wrong way to have a body” flying from flagpoles and written in the skies and pinned to backpacks everywhere.
Thank you. Thank you very much. This is an absolutely beautiful little chunk of text. Thorough yet concise. I am impressed.
Your timing is perfection. I’ve been jonesing for a word tattoo and am, once again, picking up my work on my own body image, health, food , whatnot struggles. “There is no wrong way to have a body” may be on my body very soon.
This real woman was a skinny, long legged, flat chested, short-waisted tomboy who took crap for it. Now she’s a 42 DD hot flashing menopausal real woman with worn out knees who is now invisible. When you turn 50 you suddenly vanish. Poof. You’re gone, even though you’re standing right there!
Well said. Thank you.
Thank you.
We are all HUMAN. All of us, regardless of how we choose to identify ourselves.
Humans, real ones. That’s all there is.
This is delightfully right! I did not think I could be cheered up today, but you did it! May your deity(s) of choice bless you a thousandfold. :-)
–Badger
Suzi -
“my beautiful, real, fat and a bit unhealthy girl friends who don’t get how much they hurt me when they show photos of folks who probably looked quite a bit like me before the airbrushers started in on “improving” ‘em and criticize them for being slender and healthy looking.”
I hope you’ll take another look at your statement, and consider the hurt you may be dealing to your friends and others when you declare “slender” to be equated to “healthy-looking.”
That was brilliant & beautiful. And as the mother of two daughters with polar opposite body types, we work every day to instill pride in their body. Regardless of it’s shape or size. Because in the end it’s all about pride.
8~D
Nava
Too bad M F Hussain isn’t alive to read this. The day he declared Madhuri Dixit as an epitome of a woman, I knew the poor bastard knew nothing about women….
I like this and it definitely needs to be said that “all women are real women….” except for the fact that a lot of the women we see in print media every day are NOT really human women. They’re frankensteined-women, edited for content to a degree that they are biologically impossible, and a lot of that editing has been to remove their curves (and pores). So I think it does also need to be said that “real women don’t look like photoshop women” and also “real women have real bodies” and also “women’s real bodies are good.” I think that’s part of what the “real women have curves” thing is trying to say, even if it’s maybe doing it badly. It’s contrasting “real” physical women with “unreal” women who are created by digital/technological manipulation. Even the most beautiful women models have their necks lengthened, their curves smoothed, their eyes made bigger, their pores removed, their legs stretched, their breast-size changed, etc., when going into print… and that makes them no longer “real” women.
At least when I say it, “real women have… [curves/pores/wrinkles/etc.]” it’s not meant to be an exclusive set: it’s not defining real women as curve-havers, it’s meant to define curve-having as something that real women can in fact do — it’s meant to both be the equivalent of “Women with curves are real women [too]!” and to emphasize the fact that real women don’t look like digitally altered women. I think we already know that conventionally beautiful women are real women, because the media pounds that home all the time… statements like this are designed to expand the playing field and to emphasize the need to stop creating false body expectations by showing unreal (e.g., not actually existing) women in the majority of media outlets.
It feels misguided, in a society where women are constantly idealized in an impossibly thin state to the degree that even underweight women frequently feel they are inadequate as women, to argue against a statement that encourages the recognition that a larger body is a legitimate body.
Of course, on the other hand your argument is 100% correct… there is no wrong way to have a body. But does this argument need to be made at the expense of one of the few body-affirming memes out there?
All I can say is: You rock. This completely made my day.
All I can say is.. Thank you. Thank you for your beautiful words.
M. Teratorn, I didn’t see this rant as being made at the expense of anyone. It is explicitly more inclusive than any implicitly binary statement like “real women have badgers (and fake ones don’t)”.
I think we all should point out rhetorical flaws in our peers’ assertions. Getting and responding to and using feedback is what helps us all strengthen our positions. This is why professionals use copyeditors and editors and proofreaders before going to press. I see it as inherently respectful and supportive to say to our colleagues “you’re doing it wrong”.
I don’t think it’s easy to give or to receive that kind of feedback, but I do think it’s vital to let the feedback in and adjust to it where possible.
Also, I think the other tactical problem with the “real women have elephants” formulation is that it attacks the realness of factual bodies. What we should be attacking instead is the fiction that media and advertising industries are trying to get us to internalize. I grant you that attacking bodies is conceptually easier but it costs us and leaves us vulnerable to well reasoned feedback. It will be harder to fight the conceptual fight yes, but the rewards are so much greater.
No. Solidarity will not start here and now for me, because oh well we’ve got nothing better to do. Solidarity with women will start for me when women as a species collectively recognise their characteristic inability to see the overview and apologise for the fact they’ve spent the better part of a century behaving like self-centred idiots. I’m sick of being blamed and demonised; I’m sick of having my world defined for me by people who have no right to do that. Revenge is not equality; if, O womanhood, you were actually trying to educate me by demonstrating what it’s like to be shat on, then you’re crass and patronising and you should not be surprised that there are those of us who are utterly disgusted with you. And that kind of response is not going to go away just because you’re starting to realise it was a bit stupid to provoke us.
I’m so pleased you’ve taken this time out of your busy schedule to be an asshole in public, Itsyourears. Do be sure to get some rest now, speaking ex cathedra for every male on the planet like that must be simply exhausting.
Such a wonderful reminder for all of us to celebrate ourselves exactly as we are! Thanks Hanne!
hee, and power to the people.
I enjoyed your commentary until you choose to cross topics and added gender. Take the word woman out of your statement and place person through out the commentary and there are several statements that clearly do not belong and are inconsistent with the general message. Removing the gender issue from the message allows it to be applied to all people, especially to those that need the message to strengthen their self esteem like those are born outside the biological norms of the human race. Little people are a prime example of a sub culture that suffers from internal and external judgment. How can breaking bones to elongate them be a good idea? I am sure that there are many other sub cultures in the world that could benefit from the message.
In regards to male or female in the human race, as a lay person and not a scientist, the biological roles are clearly defined to me: the female creates the egg the male creates the seed to germinate the egg. woman or man are directly associated to the biological role of male and female. In regards to genetic abnormalities, how they choose to identify themselves has little to no bearing on society as a whole from a national or global perspective. The nature of a culture and society is built on norms that allow people to function together in relative harmony and the majority very seldom concerns themselves with extremes of any sort which makes me ask the question to myself, why did you broach the topic when core of your message is so important.
Thanks
M. andrea: I would just like to point out that one of the healthiest girls I know is intersex. She will likely live a long and healthy life. Being intersex is not, in and of itself, a pathological condition.
Yes, she may run a higher risk of developing certain illnesses because she’s got a Y chromosome hanging off her XXs. But then again, I’m at high risk of developing breast cancer because I was born with two XXs into a family with a grandma and two great aunts that died of breast cancer. Are my chromosomes pathological? Nope, I just lost the gene lottery.
Also, refer to Hanne’s comment, ’cause she said it better.
Yay! Love it! Especially as one ‘real woman’ who does not have curves! Or a whole lot of other stuff I’ve been told I’m ‘supposed’ to have.
This just reminds me of my Da’s favorite line about the human race…
“All human bodies are an art form. Some art you like and some art you don’t!”
Outstandingly well said.
Excellently put! I like it inordinately as a real and unreal woman–– or girl!
Here via womanist musings …
I loved all your examples, but I would add:
Real women have two legs. Or one. Or none.
Real women have scars (and not just from C-sections) on the inside, or the outside. Or both.
“There is no wrong way to have a body.”
Great quote – I’ll be using it often.
I agree with the sentiment and statement of this blog…but I wonder if such a defence of difference may be utilised as legitimacy in cases such as pro-ana websites. If everyone is different, and that’s just fine…no one has any right to tell me that I shouldn’t be starving myself to death because I am not as thin as I want to be. Having lost friends to anorexia nervosa I worry when I see things which are at least ambivalent towards these conditions…as your blog appears to be it’s criticism of “real women have curves”…
As I said, I agree with you. I just worry.
I am trying to teach my daughters this, and it is a bit of a hard concept for an 8 and 10 year old to intake. The trouble is for the first 5-6 years of our lives we learn nothing but categories and “boxes” to put people into. It is also when our personalities form. The difficult part is that we then have to “unlearn” some of this stuff for the rest of our lives…often in the face of years of marketing campaigns telling us who we should be rather than to EMBRACE who we ARE!
“Yes, I know you’re tired of feeling disenfranchised. It is a tiresome and loathsome thing to be and to feel. But the tit-for-tat disenfranchisement of others is not going to solve that problem. Solidarity has to start somewhere and it might as well be with you and me.”
OMFG THAT. That right fucking there. It applies to so much. I want to paint it across the sky.
If this was required reading before any cosmetic procedure I believe that quite a few plastic (love that term) surgeons would be in other specialties.
Sorry, but I feel this well-meaning article has come straight from the Department of Taking Figures Of Speech Literally.
Yes, we know that women who live up to media-driven ideals are real (except when they are, in fact, computer-modified images!) People who say “Real women have x, y and z attribute” aren’t actually trying to imply that women who don’t are imaginary!
YES! YES!. Thank you.
Do you want to guess how much money companies WON”T make if there’s no wrong way to have a body, or just be?
(evil chuckle)
That was beautiful – thanks for sharing these lovely words!
Hanne, thank you for writing this.
Alastair, what some of those people are implying is not that women who are not X don’t exist, but that they are not proper women, by which they usually mean “sexually attractive,” because that’s how women’s value is still unfortunately measured by a lot of people.
I cannot count the number of times someone has remarked in my hearing that “Real women have curves; they don’t look like teenage boys.” Often followed up by some comment about the kind of man who would sleep with such women (thanks for implying that my partner of 7+ years, less than 3 years older than me, a woman well past 18, is a pedophile! We appreciate that!).
As a woman who often gets mistaken for a teenage boy because of my build and my preference for shopping in the menswear section–well, sorry I didn’t get implants to make myself more attractive to men like that? I’m still a real woman, no matter who does or doesn’t find me attractive.
(And yes, I’ve heard it a lot more from women than from men–from men the subtext is usually “if I do not find you attractive, you are not a real woman”, while from women it’s more often “I feel bad about myself, and will reassure myself by telling myself I am more attractive than you.” I can absorb the latter and sympathize with it much more easily, although I think it’s still buying into the idea that our value as women is our sexual attractiveness.)
In sum: just because you, personally, have never encountered this sentiment with nasty subtext and judgement attached to it doesn’t mean others have not. We have, and our experiences are valid.
thank you for this. as a woman who’s battled anorexia, i find such strength in your words…
i hope you don’t mind if i share this link on my ED blog? http://chasingsilhouettes.wordpress.com.
Please feel free!
Oh yeah! Brilliant. I am printing this out to stick on my wall, as a reminder to myself & as a guide to my daughter as she grows in this world which undervalues her because of her sex.
THIS!
THANK YOU! oh my goodness thank you! That just absolutely made my day/life better. Thank goodness somebody out there had the guts to say all of that.
It was really appreciated!
Word.
I love every word of this. So true in so many ways. Thank you for putting into words what I have always felt!
Ultrarad
Thank you
The expression means: In real life, as opposed to in the idealized world of movies and magazines, expect to meet women with curves.
That’s all it means.And you’ve completely misunderstood it.
Hanne, I have taken the libery of sharing a link to this blog on my Facebook page. I love what you say, for the possibilities that it contains.
My mother sent me this link. One of my cousins (on my Dad’s side) is intersex and has a link on her blog.
I am transgendered. I’m not inclined to wear pretty dresses (though in my work as a project manager on a £9.3 billion railway in London, I dressed to suit my role – smart suits and dresses). I went through a second adolescence, trying out and ultimately rejecting some of the gender stereotypes that I’ve seen my teenage daughter similarly try on and discard. But I don’t attribute any characterstic of mine to something that is essentially and uniquely female. As a management consultant and trainer, I am a people watcher, both professionally and as a private passion. I have seen more or less female or male traits exhibited by all kinds of people. For every ‘rule’ about what it is to be a man or a woman, there is an aporia.
In order to preserve my marriage – the most important thing in my life – I have chosen to de-transition. That means that after succesfully asserting my identity at work and amongst friends, I have now had to say that, regardless of my identity, I will present as a man. This has been hard and will remain so. What gives me the continuing strength to do so are my friends (with a little f) and my Friends (with a great big one).
I first told a couple of my lesbian friends that I was de-transitioning and that I was worried that I wouldn’t be welcomed into their social circles any more. “Dont’ be daft,” they said, “We know who you are and we love you for who you are, whatever you look like.” This has been the response from most of my friends.
I am a Quaker. I first started attending when I began presenting as my self, as Sarah. The Quakers just said hi and got curious. On occasions early on, when I had to turn up in male attire, they just pointed out – to me – that I was still Sarah. And my own local meeting – a dozen older women and a couple of men – only want to know one thing: “How do you want us to know you?” What I love about my Friends’ Quaker faith is their uncompromising acceptance of people for who they are. I appreciate that not all Friends share this point of view.
I won’t be reading all the comments on this blog because I find it wearing to listen to arguments born of cisgendered privilege. An early comment talked about ‘logic’, and this brought to mind one of the statements in the MBTI questionnaire: “It is better to be just than to be compassionate”. Hell, no it isn’t. When I truly understand what it is to be someone (which, I can confidently predict, is never) I will feel able to put logic over feeling; until then, I go with what feels right.
And what Hanne says feels SO right: I would feel privileged if she were my friend. (Sermon over)
Well said! I am so sick of being told that I’m not ‘a real woman’ because I don’t have ‘curves’. I struggled all through high school with being underweight and being called anorexic and bulemic and as a result I’ve always felt quite insecure about my body. So it can happen to any kind of person- no matter what their body type or shape is. What none of us need is these idiots going on with their specifications about what makes a woman ‘real’. So yes, very well said and cheers to you for saying it!
What an eloquent piece! As a trans man, I’m deeply touched and very much in agreement. I appreciate the ways you tie together women’s, intersex, and transgender body policing. Thank you for this post! (P.S. maybe it defeats the purpose to note this if you’re reading this comment, but I rarely read comments on anything that brings out the haters–I find it depressing and exhausting–and I’ve definitely had my share of really messed up bigotry directed at me via public internet posts. I thought you should know that I found this link through the repost of a cisgender straight man, and I’m sure many more people of all biologies and identies who agree with your point are sharing it with friends and loved ones.)
Fanfuckingtastic! And, really…why does it have to be any more complex than this? You said it perfectly. No one need get into the distillation of gender and intersex and transgender issues. This is what it is and it’s beautiful and well said. People are so anxious to jump on the nitpicking bandwagon. I’m sending this viral. Now. And becoming a regular reader.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
This is a great post. As a younger woman I was very slender and the “real women have curves” line always made me feel unvalued, even as my (also thin) girlfriends would proclaim “you’re so skinny” as an envying compliment. People accused me of eating disorders which was confusing and also harmful, because people who actually have severe eating disorders often look SICK. Now I’m an adult and I can gain weight finally but now I feel anxious about getting “fat!” You just can’t win with the body policing and idealization of this culture.
In response to the commentors who are positing that the phrase is saying that “women with curves are real women”: that may be what the intention of the phrase was originally, but the phrase CAN (and often does) imply “…and unreal women don’t” which as others have pointed out is devaluing and exclusionary for uncurvy women. When I have personally encountered this phrase it has always been as an underhanded insult masquerading as empowerment.
To me, the phrase “women with ____ are real, too!” is a more accurate and clear way of saying what the “real women” stuff wants to say, but oversimplifies.
Hear, hear! What a powerful expression of the rejection of the loathsome “Real women [x]” nonsense.
I totally agree with all of the above, but we shouldn’t have to keep repeating it. It should be an accepted fact
“Real women are feminine and smell good and they are masculine and smell good and they are androgynous and smell good, except when they don’t smell so good, but that can be changed if desired because real women change stuff when they want to.”
why this??? why say there is no wrong way to have a body… except if you want to call yourself a woman you better smell good.
This is the stuff of legends, and I am so delighted to read it, and I am going to share it, and keep on sharing it, until the message gets through….
Just stopping by to say, besides how much I loved the post in its entirety how specifically I appreciated your inclusiveness about trans* identities. I transitioned nearly twenty years ago, during the crest of the second-wave anti-trans brand of feminism, and took a lot of stick and rejection for not being “real” enough. To read this, and to see how well received it is in the feminist blogosphere, is very healing. Thank you.
So to all the women who love this – would you date a man who is significantly shorter than you? Men come in all sorts of shapes, too. Or is that asking for too much acceptance?
@Clark
>implying those of us who think this “real women have curves” sentiment is bullshit would be hypocrites when it’s applied to men.
LOL, GTFO.
I love this. And my first boyfriend was 5’6″. I am 6’1″. We stayed together for 2 years and loved each other a lot. So, yeah, Clark, take your little innuendo and go away now, would you?
I love this more than you can know. I am a PA in OB/Gyn. Would it be ok with you if I handed this out to my patients? I would of course cite you. Please let me know.
I have a bald head and hairy armpits and curves and small breasts and don’t like wearing heels and I am so sexy and real it hurts so good!!!! Love to you for this declaration! You are The Beautiful Kind!
Yes! And check this out: http://thisisawoman.com/
It’s full of amazing photos and stories of women who espouse just this philosophy!
There is no wrong way to *have* a body. But remember: it is a dishonor to YOURSELF to *treat* your body poorly, out of distorted self-image or societal pressure or unsettled emotional issues or whatever.
Real women demand to have their intellectual property and their copyright respected, and should; but they also gift their creativity to the larger culture, stick a Creative Commons Attribution on it, and let their powerful ideas take on a life of their own.
No artist has an obligation to make hir work available for free. Indeed, few artists could survive that way. That I am doing so in this case is my offering, of my own free will. I have used CC licensing in the past and may do so in the future, but am not in this specific case. Unless you are my agent, and you are not, kindly refrain from telling me how to protect myself and my work as a professional.
Clark said: “So to all the women who love this – would you date a man who is significantly shorter than you? Men come in all sorts of shapes, too. Or is that asking for too much acceptance?”
Nobody is saying that all women should be considered universally attractive. There is a huge difference between saying “Real women are fat. And thin. And both, and neither, and otherwise.” and saying “Because women have many different body shapes, all people who are attracted to women should be attracted to all those different body shapes.” Those are two completely separate ideas, and bringing up one in a conversation of the other isn’t at all relevant. Now, if you were to ask “Do you agree or disagree with the statement that a man shouldn’t be thought as less of a man because he is five feet tall, or is a hundred pounds overweight, or is missing a testicle?” – that would be a relevant question to ask.
FINALLY! Someone out there said the words that we have been dying to say but didn’t know how!!!! I couldn’t have said it any better! I hope it’s ok with you if I share this on my blog!!! Such an inspiration!
WOW! This is what I think, loved it, so well said. THANK YOU for this. Congrats from Portugal.
Bruna
Yes. This should be required reading material for all those who can read. And for those who can’t, it should be read aloud for them by someone who can.
Preach love.
Thank you x1 million.
i am sure many have said it above: just… simply… THANK YOU :)
Brilliant. Well said. After all, it’s who we are on the inside that really masters. Thanks for starting my day with inspiration, Hanne!
A real woman is someone who was born a female and celebrates who she is. If you were born a female, you are a female. If you were born a male then you are a male. Simple as that. Yes, we have different body types and we should love ourselves for who we are, and still try to better ourselves by being healthy, strengthening our faith, and learning what we can. If you were born with both then you are both. If you were born with neither then you are neither sex but no less a person. Celebrate it! Love it! Whatever anatomy God gave you is to be used for His glory no matter what it is.
A Real Woman is every woman.
THANK YOU!
Great article! More people need to read this.
Unfortunately the misogynists will come out of the woodwork to spew their hate. Its only because they fear that they actually have to accept people as they are.
I’m going to share this.
JJ, biological essentialism does not give us enough freedom or liberty to celebrate who we are. I’m sorry you feel it does, but I do not agree.
I am really tired of people misunderstanding the phrase “real women have curves.” It is not exclusionary of thin women; rather it is inclusive of fat women. I realize the phrasing is ambiguous and could be understood the way you’re reading it, but that is not the intent and it’s frustrating that so many people miss it. The intent of this phrase is to say that the group “real women” includes the subgroup “women who have curves.” It could be written “real women also have curves.” It’s a message so seldom heard by fat women that it sickens me when other women take issue with it because they (incorrectly) feel they’re being excluded. I understand that thin women have their own set of problems, but please stop shitting all over one of the few positive messages we fat women get.
This post hits home for me. I am still suffering from all the abuse and bullying I received as a young woman (and still sometimes get now) because I was too skinny. Other girls at school hated me, and most certainly told me I was “not real” and that my body type was “unrealistic” and that I just HAD to be starving. The boys were also quick to tell me I was below their standards. Even complete strangers (adults or other teens) felt entitled to negatively comment on my body. I couldn’t even go to the store without getting harassed. My entire life, people have demanded that I “explain” my thinness and defend my body type.
The truth is that I was just naturally thin through no “fault” of my own. I ate all kinds of food all the time, and developed unhealthy eating habits I still have to this day (I’m 36). I do indeed super size me at McDonald’s about 3x a week. I eat out every day (pizza, burgers, pasta) and clean my plate each time. And that’s just lunch. When I get home, my husband cooks elaborate high calorie dinners and serves me large portions. He has learned to do this because my appetite is out of control. I get cranky if I’m not constantly fed. I don’t have patience to cook, because I need to eat… NOW.
I finally hit a healthy BMI after having a child. I am 5’6 and 125 lbs (about 25 lbs heavier than my high school weight). Still, probably due to size inflation and the way I carry my weight, I only wear a size 2. I still get told by white women that I need to eat a sandwich and that I have no butt, despite my measurements being 38-25-38. I do have narrow hips, but I have a very prominent bubble butt. I guess because I only look curvy from the profile view, and not the front view, I’m still not good enough. Men and Black women, however, often compliment me on my figure in general, and my butt in particular. Even that doesn’t bring me happiness. I still look in the mirror and see the skinny kid everyone hates.
I guess my point is that these words do hurt. Perhaps some people mean them as all inclusive, but a lot of them definitely don’t. Very thin women are a minority, and no matter how much the media sells thinness, the majority can make life hell for the minority. I never cared about looking like a magazine cover. I just wanted to look like everyone else.
Genetic superiority, so-called, does not equal moral superiority, so-called.
I’m paraphrasing this from, “Re-thinking Thin.” I cannot recall the author’s name, but she hit it on the head with that one.
I always felt uncomfortable with the “real women have curves” thing. I appreciated the attempt to stand against people who judge, harm, shun, hate me because I’m fat, but it didn’t feel right. This rant sums it up very well.
This is so wonderful. :) To any intersexed people reading these comments… please don’t feel everyone sees your body as a “disorder” or are squicked in any way, because it’s not true. Female, male and intersexed bodies are beautiful and don’t have to be any certain way. <3 I'm a pansexual boy. I've loved and been attracted to female people with facial hair with chest hair, etc., it's FINE. I've loved and been attracted to male people with small penises, it's FINE. It's beautiful. It's loveable. It's cute. It's adorable. I loved it. There is nothing wrong with you, don't be ashamed of your body. There are people out there who do not buy into this crap! Thank you so much Hanne. I will share. :)
I literally cried my eyes out after reading this post….
I cannot believe how true this all is, I am a real woman! I am a human being!
There is nothing that will ever be able to take these things away from me, and this message is for every person that has either disregarded me, or disowned me on a basis of anything other than my personality.
Reading this gave me an intense feeling of unity. Thank you.
Well said!
Thank you for blogging something I have been trying to put into words for the longest time. I am a teenager who is sick and tired and the same stereotypes, and sick and tired of our society’s stubborn refusal to listen.
Thank you so much for writing this. It’s beautiful and true. I shared it on facebook and just wanted to stop by to say THANKS!
Wow. I really appreciate and love this.
Hello that was a great post. I have been so insulted by those real women have curves ads and the dove ads, love your curves….what about women who are small breasted? I get disrespected by other WOMEN because I’m small. I get treated like a child. People assume my personality is meek cute demure…..I feel it is WOMEN who are belittling and nasty towards me about my looks (boobs and otherwize). We need to stop judgeing people by their looks.
Women who have pretty, bouncy boobs and nice cleavage who complain that men stare or women who have big boobs and joke so off handedly about “the girls”….do you have any idea how it feels to not have “curves”? For no one to stare except with pity and disgust? What about people with cancer? Can you be greatful???????? No one seems to believe me when I say other women really do think I am less. Less valuable. Less sexy. Less smart. Less able to do any job. They even think I made less milk. I am 5’2″. My son weighed 9lbs 2oz and I breastfed for two years and had enough milk for twins the whole time. Don’t judge! You don’t know about who someone IS by their bodies.
Thank you! I have felt this way for so long. I’m so sick of any type of person being made to feel less than. We are all different and that is beautiful. It always irks me when I hear someone talk about what a “real” woman is but I could not have worded it better than you. Thank you for putting this out there!
Excellent timing for us to promote this discussion ..the` bodypolitic`thank you Hanne
I love this. Thank you, Hanne.
THANK YOU! You made me cry.
Thank you so much for giving voice to all of us who ARE disenfranchised and just plain discriminated against. It’s been a lifelong struggle, trying to be something that I’m not. So much frustration, envy, yearning… for what? I wish I could have read this when I was young. I would have shared it with so many people who really needed to hear it. I wish I could make a billboard out of it NOW and post it at every entrance to every town everywhere. Thank you!
This! This to the last word!
There are some words so overused and abused and distorted and used to hurt people that I heartily loathe them. These are “real” or “true” or “natural” when applied to people. They mean nothing except for what the speaker/writer wants them to mean and it’s rarely anything supportive or empowering.
And that’s why I’m so grateful for your brilliant, brilliant text. Everyone’s real. Nobody’s “realer”. ;->
Thank you.
Would you mind terribly if I translated this post into my native Polish, of course giving you full credits and linking to the original version? It’d appear on my LJ (ija-ijewna dot livejournal dot com) with an appropriate linkage and homage both in English and in Polish.
Jak się mówi “that’d be great!” po polsku?
It’d be “Byłoby świetnie!” BTW, already posted: http://ija-ijewna.livejournal.com/16735.html
Thank you once again. ;-)
Woo Hoo, Hooray! This should be yelled for every roof top, and made into a song to be played on every radio station, then someone will have to make the T-Shirt. Thank you so much for saying what so many believe but are afraid to say.
All this hand-wringing over the use being described as a disorder: well it is. Just like gender dysmorphia is *described as* a disorder. both with certain peramiters that may vary from discussion to discussion. That Hanne is explaining this fact does not mrs that she agrees with it or with the connotative value of the word “disorder”. That being said, I really don’t see an anti-trans message, here. Please enlighten me.
As for the need to address “all” people- you’re missing the point. The Entire Article is a rhetorical response to a specific concept and phrase. Ignoring the original rhetoric takes the entire post out of context and she might as well start writing about every category for everything.
And I do believe she *explocitly* opened the category addressed to interpretation, not subjective limitation or privileged didactics. The last sentence being the only catch-all there is pretty generous an I don’t see how it excludes trans OR interest people from defining themselves.
Great thoughts, Hanne. Thank you.
i love this. and i love you for thinking it :)
i love this. and i love you for thinking it! it really made my week, if not year.
I was wondering if I might paste the text from your blog posting on my tumblr account. I would give full credit to you as well as linking back to this original posting?
And thank you for writing this : )
Many folks have already done so without asking, and I thank you very much for asking first. I’m fine with this post being reposted as long as credit is given and there’s a link. Thanks!
YES!!!! I am a real woman and sometimes I wear lip gloss and other times bike oil. I sometimes cry and sometimes swear. Sometimes I eat chips and other times salads.
Great post! x
Some of you people are annoying as hell. Stop going into a medical argument over this. You missed the point, assholes. This wasn’t written for a biology text book. This is supposed to make us all feel comfortable in our own bodies and its supposed to make others stop telling us that we should look a certain way, because we are fine the way we are. If you want to talk about biology and logic, you probably shouldn’t be reading things like this.
thank you. It has always angered me when curvy women say “real women have curves” as a way to protest the thin, lanky figures of many models we see in the media. I understand they say it for empowerment, and to make themselves feel beautiful when so many things attempt to tell them they’re not. but, I don’t have very many curves. I am petite, always has been, as is every female in my immediate family. I eat a lot. I eat healthy. I exercise. I can also be lazy, and unhealthy. I eat a lot of candy, and sweets. I have asthma, and have never been able to run a mile. I’m 5’2″ and 110 pounds. I would never be a model. So what, because I don’t have curves, am I not a real woman? In our journey to empowerment let’s stop trying to define what makes something real or not, like you said, the “tit-for-tat disenfranchisement of others” is not going to solve any problem. This has always bothered me. Let’s have each others backs.
Yes. Yes. Oh, thank you.
My extreme gratitude seems to be an indicator of how badly I must have needed to read this, which indicates a not-so-perfect social balance.
Thank you, thank you.
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